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2018 Vision Australia Report: Online, but off-track
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In 2017 Vision Australia conducted survey-based research into the online learning experiences of university students who are blind or have low vision. 34 of the 35 respondents reported that experienced significant barriers when trying to use online learning environments, and in some cases these barriers prevented the students from completing their university studies.
This podcast episode is the audio taken from our webinar, 2018 Vision Australia Report: Online, but off-track. Bruce Maguire outlines and discusses the findings of Vision Australia’s research into the significant barriers to online learning experienced by university students who are blind or have low vision.
Bruce is blind and has a Master’s degree in Policy and Applied Social Research. Before joining Vision Australia in 2008, Bruce worked in the Disability Rights Unit at the Australian Human Rights Commission. He has also been Chair of the Australian Braille Authority and President of the Round Table on Information Access for People with Print Disabilities. He also led Vision Australia’s research project into barriers to online learning experienced by university students who are blind or have low vision.
Related resources
2018 Vision Australia Report: Barriers to Online Learning Experienced by University Students who are Blind or Have Low Vision. https://www.visionaustralia.org/community/news/2019-08-23/online-track
ADCET Webinar: 2018 Vision Australia Report: Online, but off-track -https://www.adcet.edu.au/resource/10319/adcet-webinar-2018-vision-australia-report-online-but-off-track/
Head to our website to view the episode transcript: https://www.adcet.edu.au/resource/10339/podcast-2018-vision-australia-report-online-but-off-track/
Hi everyone, welcome to the ADSET Podcast. Supporting you, supporting students. We would like to acknowledge and pay respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which this recording is taking place, and to the elders, past, present, and emerging. This podcast episode is the audio taken from our webinar with Bruce Maguire from Vision Australia. During this podcast, Bruce Maguire outlines and discusses the findings of Vision Australia's research into the significant barriers to online learning experienced by university students who are blind or have low vision. Make sure you check out our show notes to find the link to the webinar. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for inviting us to be part of the webinar this afternoon. I'll be sharing with you the key findings of Vision Australia's research into the barriers that university students who are blind or have low vision encounter when they need to use online learning platforms. And I'll also be providing you with an update on Vision Australia's work in this space since we released the report of our research. And then I'll be offering some suggestions for how you can assist students deal with those barriers while we continue to advocate for systemic solutions. And as Darlene mentioned, I'll be I'll be happy to try and answer any questions that you may have. When I was in my last year of high school, more than four decades ago, and thinking about what I wanted to study at university for the first time, I was keen to become a psychologist. But I left university with majors in linguistics and philosophy instead. And I I haven't become a professional in either of those fields, but working in the disability sector does give me plenty of scope for applying philosophical concepts to practical problems and for observing how profoundly our thoughts and actions are influenced by the language we use. When I was a kid, we uh talked about becoming astronauts when we grew up, and we imagined how much fun we'd have zooming up into space. And back then space was sort of just space, and and once you zoomed off, uh there'd be uh no barriers to stop you until you crashed into a distant planet or chipped over a black hole somewhere out there. Well, over the past few months, the word zoom has taken on a whole new dimension, of course. We're now all of us cybernaughts zooming around in cyberspace and dropping into webinars, catching up with friends and family so we can practice social distancing but paradoxically also stay socially close, having virtual music lessons and uh studying on online, and all thanks to a software program called Zoom, which just happened to be in the right place at the right time and which sort of coincidentally, uh although I think it was also by design, includes many uh accessibility features. So people who are blind or have low low vision can uh you know can participate in in Zoom meetings and webinars, just as I am uh participating in this webinar. But in cyberspace, unlike in physical space beyond the stratosphere, there are barriers that we as a society have created and allowed to flourish. And and in this presentation I'm discussing one set of those barriers that university students who are blind or have low vision experience when they're accessing online learning platforms. When I was at uh university in the mid-1970s, I experienced barriers as a blind student. Um, the reason, in fact, that I didn't study psychology was because the professor of psychology at the time told me that blind people can't study it, and I'd be better to study philosophy because blind people can study that. And as an impressionable and shy 16-year-old high school student contemplating university, I believed in. There have been many changes in the way our society approaches disability since then. Some of those changes have been positive and inclusive, and some haven't. The barriers have changed, but they haven't gone away. The university sector has experienced many changes too, of course. Government funding for universities has become much more contested. There has been increasing pressure on universities to align their courses with industry and career outcomes, and there has been a need for greater flexibility in course offerings and study modes. At the same time, the value of a university education has increased with tertiary education being more strongly linked to employment outcomes, and this is just as true for people who are blind or have low vision. An international survey conducted in 2018 by Vision Australia and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, CNIB, and the Blind Foundation of New Zealand showed that while people who are blind or have low vision are significantly less likely to be employed full-time, and and and I'll just sort of go off at a slight tangent there and say that the unemployment rate is well over 50%, and that's several times of several orders of magnitude higher than the even the unemployment rate will be as a result of the COVID pandemic in the in the general community. But even though that unemployment rate is well over 50%, there is a much greater chance of obtaining full-time employment for those people who are blind or have low vision who also have a post-secondary qualification, such as university degree. But perhaps the biggest single change in the university space has been the development of online learning. Now, um, just going back to the mid-70s again, if you had mentioned the word online uh back then, or even in the early 2000s when I was uh at university again doing my uh masters of uh policy and applied social research, uh, we would have thought you were talking about a fish that was on the point of getting away, or maybe colour-coordinated clothes pegs on the Hills hoist out the back. Um it it's now virtually impossible for a student at one of the 42 universities in Australia to avoid interacting with an online learning environment, even for those courses that are delivered online, or at least which were until a couple of months ago when we were compelled by the SARS-CoV-2 virus to zoom away from campuses in our homes. And there's no doubt that this new online learning space has brought many benefits to universities and students alike. Universities can now offer courses via distance mode with unprecedented flexibility. Students can virtually tailor-make their own study program and uh have the freedom to study when and where they want. However, as those of us who are blind or have low vision or who work in the disability sector generally know only too well, accessibility barriers can and do spring up overnight when technology develops rapidly without any rights-based focus on the principles of inclusive design. Over the past three years, Vision Australia staff have spoken with quite a number of university students who are blind or have low vision. Almost without exception, they've reported that they've experienced numerous accessibility barriers when learning online when using online learning environments. In some cases, these barriers have prevented them from continuing their studies at all. We've received comments such as, I felt humiliated and belittled because I could not check my own assignment grades like everyone else, because that particular function of the online software is inaccessible to people who use screen reading software. And another comment was, I was told that the online discussion board was accessible, but I found that there were 200 links on the page and I couldn't actually find anything I needed because of all the clutter. And uh another comment was, and some of my lecturers were really good and helped me with those online activities that were inaccessible, but others made no effort at all and told me it was my problem. And I asked the disability services people for assistance with the online stuff, but it took them six weeks to get back to me. And by then I was uh too far behind in my course to continue with it. Comments like these are, of course, you know, persuasive and disturbing, uh, but and they suggest that the burgeoning use of online learning environments by universities has led to numerous accessibility barriers. However, the exact nature and extent of these barriers had not been previously studied. So Vision Australia decided in 2017 to conduct some small-scale research so we could gain a more detailed understanding of the online learning experiences of current and university recent university students who are blind or have low vision. Now it's important to emphasize, though, that the barriers to online learning aren't the only barriers that university students who are blind or have low vision face. For example, we continue to hear disturbing reports of students being unable to obtain their study materials in their specified format, especially Braille. But the the danger of researching all the barriers all at once is that the resulting report would be so voluminous and uh you know, it might add such depressing reading that it would go the way of many other reports and be quickly shelved and forgotten. We wanted to maximize the chances of achieving real and lasting change that would bring benefits to students. So we designed a survey to gather information about the online learning experiences of current and recent university students. It was available for completion online or by telephone from early May 17 until the 30th of June 2017. And because we wanted to keep the survey straightforward and user-friendly, all the fields were optional, including contact information, assistive technology used, the name of the university, where they had studied, and uh non-directed comments about their experiences using online learning platforms, you know, lectures, tutorials, and uh online forums and so forth. Almost all participants shared the name of the university at which they studied, and in fact, more participants withheld their phone number than the name of the institution. However, in our report of the research, we very deliberately avoided uh naming any particular university. The fundamental purpose of our research was to identify the extent of accessibility barriers to online learning across the university sector rather than to draw attention to the shortcomings or failings or indeed the best practices at a particular institution. So the survey was uh promoted through Vision Australia's network, including contacts with university students and through our social media channels. So, what was the response? When we began the research project, we figured that we'd be doing well if we received a dozen or so uh responses. It's challenging to get university students to participate in surveys at the best of times. And we know that students who are blind or have low vision are usually under increased pressure. But in fact, we received 35 responses from current or recent university students. And we we think that this extremely high number is a reflection of the extreme importance that uh students place on sharing their experiences of the accessibility barriers that they encountered, in the hope that by so doing they'll be contributing to systemic change that uh will make university study more accessible and rewarding, if if not for them, then at least for uh students in the future. In total, the participants in the research were studying or had recently studied at 24, which is 65% of Australia's 37 public universities, which uh makes it possible for us to draw some reliable conclusions about the sector-wide nature of the barriers that were reported. One student had studied at a higher education provider other than a university, and two had studied at institutions in the vet sector. Forty-one percent of participants used adaptive technology related to screen enlargement like Zoom text and Windows Magnifier, and the remaining participants used synthetic speech or Braille-based technology such as uh Jaws for Windows, NVDA, the screen reading software, and the Braille Note Touch, which is a refreshable Braille note taker based on the uh Android system. Uh, a small number of um uh participants relied solely on the Mac and its built-in accessibility features, which uh you should probably know are voiceover and Zoom. And after analysing the results of the research project, we produced a report headlined online but off track, which is a concise way of saying that the university sector has strayed far from the path of barrier-free access as online learning systems have been introduced. Australia's then disability discrimination commissioner, Alastair McEwen, provided a forward to the report, and we officially launched it at the National Union of Students Disability and Accessibility Conference on September the 30th, uh, 2018. And I remember um launching that report, and I was uh I was again sitting in my living room at my dining room table just as just as I am now because that uh that that particular conference was uh was in Melbourne. So it's um it's it's interesting that uh uh here I am again, although for very different, very different reasons, talking about the report from my dining room table. And the report is available on our uh website, and I'm hoping that most of you will have had a chance to read it if you or to at least uh know you can read it if you if you want to. Um I'll I'll now move on to summarize the key findings of our research, and they're described in much more detail in the report. Um the first thing to say uh is that not all participants experienced accessibility barriers to online learning. In fact, two of them described their experience in completely positive terms, although one of them noted that their experience uh could have been better. The second thing to say about our research findings, and the one that must be said over and over again, is that the other participants all experienced accessibility barriers of one kind or another when engaging with online learning environments that they were required to use as a part of their university studies. Each of these barriers uh warrants a presentation in its own right. Um, but I'm just going in this uh the webinar this afternoon uh to illustrate them uh with quotes from the research participants themselves because it's their experiences which you know expressed in their own words that speak most eloquently and most memorably and uh most uh persuasively. And Darlene, are we going to are we going to just be able to do that? I was about to interrupt you, so well done.
SPEAKER_02You've done very well. Um so just dump Janie, you're right to put the first poll up. So sorry, buddy that I forgot to mention. So the first poll is are your university online learning platforms accessible? Um Are your university's online platforms accessible to students who use assistive technology? Yes, no, or don't know. So if um people are right to put in your votes. So just while everybody's doing that, just to let you know, we will have another poll at the end, um, getting closer to the end as well. Um so sorry I didn't mention at the beginning, but we're just wanting to check you're awake, but also it's fantastic for us to hear um what people's experiences are currently. All right, how are we going, Jane? Do you think we can put the results up now? Okay, so um so are your university's online platforms accessible to students who use assistive technology? 33% of people said yes, 19% of people said no, and 47% of the people said they don't know. Yep, so thanks, Bruce.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, thanks, Darlene, and uh we'll be thinking about um those figures um while I sort of talk about the the comments we received from from participants and and beginning with one comment um that um we received from a participant describ was um described the experience of using online learning as follows Awful. The university website is very difficult to see. Also, I spend so much time looking for things that makes for frustration and exhaustion. Another participant commented, it has been a difficult experience, especially providing feedback to peers online. The difficulty interacting with peers using online platforms was raised by many participants, including this student. The Blackboard discussion boards didn't always allow me to post a comment. Blackboard Collaborate is inaccessible. Another participant noted, I can't use the discussion boards at all. I email comments to my lecturers and they post them for me. I can't complete online tasks like other students. Another participant commented, I'm not able to participate in the discussion forums, and sometimes I miss the materials. A further comment came from this participant. Discussion boards were inaccessible, Blackboard Collaborate, uh, navigability was limited as the chat functionality was inaccessible. A number of participants also mentioned that the that some parts of an online learning platform are accessible while others are not, and it can be impossible to know in advance whether the functionality uh that uh is needed to complete a particular task is accessible. One participant explained, when I launched Adobe Connect, I could never be sure whether I'd be able to participate along with everyone else. Sometimes I could join an online seminar, but I couldn't read the PowerPoints that the presenter was using. Sometimes I could join an online chat group, but I couldn't uh access the list of participants or tell who was speaking at any particular time. It was very much hit and miss, and it was never the same from one day to the next or one subject to the next. I wasted a lot of time trying to figure out how to make it work. One of the important concepts that's developed in the disability standards for education is that of reasonable adjustment. The basic idea, of course, is that educational institutions must have mechanisms in place for dealing with systems and processes that are inaccessible and cannot be made accessible. So, for example, if the function to submit a university assignment online is inaccessible, then the university must have some other way for a student who is blind or has low vision to submit it. The uh development of these reasonable adjustments is usually the responsibility of the disability support staff within each uh individual university. And uh there doesn't appear to be any consistent approach towards the nature of reasonable adjustments, and students at different universities can have very different experiences. It often depends on the knowledge of the particular staff. Numerous uh participants in our research drew attention to this. So, for example, in quotes, when I email them, which is the disability services staff, about some assistance I need, I generally just get an automated out-of-office reply. And it sometimes takes weeks before I actually get to speak with someone. In that time, things have generally become more difficult for me because I haven't received the assistance. Uh, another participant provided this comment. I've had quite a bit of difficulty accessing online books as I cannot copy and paste them to view them in a larger font. I found the disability support department are not very understanding of low vision, and I'm often required to provide medical certificates for assignment extensions. I'm feeling like I'm not not helped much, and it is only my determination that will help me complete my degree. In conversations, a number of participants expressed their surprise and frustration that the support services they need to use during their university studies were all predicated and Administered according to a medical model of disability at a time when the social model is widely accepted in other areas of social policy. And one participant explained, I go to my doctor when I'm sick or need a flu shot. She knows what my blood pressure and cholesterol are, but honestly, she wouldn't have a clue about what assistance I need at uni, and yet she's the one they listen to rather than me. How can that be person-centred? I'll just finish this brief summary of the findings of our research with a comment from one participant which I think will motivate us all to work as hard as we can to achieve change. I spent years at university constantly trying to overcome barriers, online, offline, you name it, and constantly battling discriminatory, prejudicial, and hurtful attitudes and behaviour from support staff who are employed in roles where they should have known better. I'm finished now, and I never want to set foot inside a university again as long as I live. I'm totally repulsed by the idea of further study. It was a deeply traumatic experience for me, and I've emotional scars that may never fully heal. So, what can be done to soften those scars? What can be done to help eliminate the barriers that cause them? As we reflected on the findings of our research, we developed ten recommendations which we formulated to address the sector-wide systemic and pervasive barriers to online learning and which were targeted at the three bodies that we felt at the time were best placed to address those barriers. The first of these three bodies is the Australian government, which provides a significant amount of funding to universities and has a responsibility to ensure that its funding is used for the benefit of all students, including those who are blind or have low vision. The second body is the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency, which is known as TEXA, which administers a number of standards having to do with the quality of education that universities provide to students and the quality of the overall experience that students have while they are at university. But eight of the ten recommendations are directed towards Universities Australia, which is the peak body representing the 37 Australian public universities. Are first the introduction of sector-wide accessible ICT procurement policies that include requirements for vendors and distributors of online learning systems to demonstrate compliance with accessibility standards and best practices. And secondly, the development of best practice guidelines for training resources for disability support staff. Are we going to do the second poll now, Darlene? Are we going to wait?
SPEAKER_02We had talked about 11, but um slide 11, but happy to put it on now. So we'll do another poll.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, I if if I if I've if I've thrown the thrown the schedule out that I'm sorry, I just popped into my head that there may be a good time.
SPEAKER_02That's fine. And it's um even better because it's sometimes we forget to do them. So this is great that we've got them done. So the question is Does your university have an accessible ICT policy? Um and it's either yes, no, or you don't know. So Bruce, um hearing you read those um stories, you know, I've read the report and and you know became emotional and frustrated, but hearing you read them again has um yeah, it's just such a powerful, it's so powerful to hear people's stories, and um and yeah, especially, yeah, it's just terrible that people still hear it, you know, experience those things um in this day and age, and and you do kind of worry with COVID-19 that you know that he's even been exacerbated for many students at the moment. So okay, so um so does your university have accessible ICT policies? 20% said yes, 20% said no, and 60% said they don't know.
SPEAKER_01Okay, back to you. Thanks, Bruce. Thanks, uh, thanks, Darlene. And those those those results are very, you know, very interesting, and uh keep them in mind as as I um sort of talk now about what we've done over the past 18 months uh since we released the report. And we've had in fact we've had various discussions with government and university sector representatives as well as ongoing engagement with the Australian Human Rights Commission. We've had a mixed response, I have to say, uh, from the university sector, and so far we've not been able to secure a commitment to a consistent and collaborative approach to accessible ICT procurement. We're encouraged that there is a growing focus by governments and industry on the adoption of standards for accessible ICT procurement, including here in Australia, and we're starting to see some developers of online learning platforms give more than lip service to accessibility and make long-overdue improvements. But nevertheless, if the university sector in Australia were to develop a consistent approach, it would allow them to influence developers more effectively than any single university can at present. While we're continuing our discussions uh with the sector and with government, we are keen to work with uh individual universities to develop and implement best practices in online learning accessibility. Although each university by themselves might have limited influence or on international software developers, there's certainly a lot they can do to improve the experiences and outcomes for students who are faced with significant accessibility barriers. When prospective students who are blind or have low vision ask me for some tips on how they can prepare for university, one thing I strongly encourage them to do is make early contact with the disability support staff and discuss their study plans and assistive technology options in detail. It's important, I think, that at least some disability support staff have advanced familiarity with screen reading software and how it interacts with the university's online learning platforms so they can give students accurate advice. I also advise prospective students to speak with staff about arranging a test drive of the online learning system that they'll be using once they commence their studies. Being able to explore the system while there's no pressure to meet deadlines and participate in class discussions can be extremely valuable. I know of at least one university that has been able to provide students with a document that lists all the online systems that are used by that university and how each one of them interacts with the major screen reading software. Again, this can be an extremely helpful resource, providing, of course, that it's uh kept up to date. The Australian historian, Professor Manning Clark, regarded modern Australia as a battleground between, on the one hand, the enlargers of life who embrace adventure, a vision of change, and what he called the banquet of life, and on the other hand, the straighteners who are cautious, narrow-minded, suspicious of change, and who want to keep things pretty much as they are. Many aspects of the ongoing quest for disability and equality and inclusion can, I think, also be usefully expressed in those terms. And uh and in the time that we've been promoting our online but off-track report in the university sector, we've certainly encountered both the enlargers and the straighteners. As we begin to plan for university uh education in a world after the COVID-19 uh pandemic, more than ever before, we need uh enlargers, more sector leadership and decisive action. Otherwise, it'll be a long time before university students who are blind or have low vision achieve equal and barrier-free access to study opportunities. I just want to conclude this presentation this afternoon by paying a tribute to the students who participated in our research. Because in sharing their experiences, they're calling on us, whatever our place in the university sector or in government or in other organizations, to take action to bring the university sector back on track, to eliminate discriminatory barriers and provide equal access to the many benefits of a university education. To be worthy of the confidence that they've placed in us, we must take that action so that the community that we serve can participate and uh fully in the benefits of a university education and zoom into that banquet of life. I'll I'll um stop there, uh Darlene, and and hand back to you, um, and I'm happy to sort of uh try and answer any questions.
SPEAKER_02Great, thank you, Bruce. That's fantastic. It's fantastic to um yeah, to I think taking the words from the the page um into our into our minds, fantastic. Um okay, we've had a couple of questions. We had a few questions prior um prior to the webinar, but we've also got some um that um have come throughout the webinar. Just a reminder, if people have um questions they'd like um me to ask Bruce, plead at please add that to the QA um pod that I think we call it pod. Um one of the key questions was um I was sorry, I'm just gonna bring it over. I've I've um got three screens here, and I've got one of the screens going the wrong direction. Um is there um is there a learning platform that you find is the most accessible that you've come across in in this research, but also in your work?
SPEAKER_01Um it's it's not an easy question to answer, and yet it's an obvious, it's it's it's an obvious one to to to ask. And the reason the reason it's not easy to answer, well, there are a couple of reasons it's not easy to answer. Um firstly, some platforms have certain components that are accessible, like there are certainly some parts of Blackboard that that are accessible, but as the research participants uh indicated, there are other parts that you know that weren't. The the other the other thing, and this is um in a in a sense a positive you know reason why it's not easy to answer the question, is that there are ongoing developments. I know, I know, for example, that Blackboard has done some some work in the past couple of years, um, I think driven by um accessible ICT uh procurement standards in in countries like the US and the the EU to sort of improve uh accessibility. So it's it's a kind of a bit of a um you know um a shifting uh a shifting space. Um so what is what is not accessible today may be uh less or in or even more inaccessible uh next next week or or next month. So what I would what I would say to people is um if you're contemplating uh sort of purchasing or deploying an online learning platform, ask the vendor whether it's accessible, ask them to demonstrate the accessibility, tell them, you know, get them to show you how it works with JAWOS and not just you know, not just one component that they happen to pick. You know, you choose the components that you want them to want them to um uh you know to demonstrate accessibility uh and you know ask them for whatever documentation they have about compliance with with uh accessible ICT procurement standards.
SPEAKER_02And I think that demonstration is really important. I think well, you know, I've I've heard of a recent example where the vendor was, oh yes, we're fully accessible and you know, talk the talk. Um, but yeah, when it came down to actually um yeah, the university using it, it didn't prove as as accessible. Um, another question we've got, Bruce, is have there been advances in provision of learning materials in accessible formats over the last decade? I mean, from your experience, you know, I can't believe it was that long ago. Um, but yeah, so have you seen things improved in recent times or even over the last decade?
SPEAKER_01There've certainly been some improvements, um, but it's it as with as with many aspects of accessibility, it's it's it's kind of like you make two steps forward and you take one step back, one step back. And whilst there certainly some things have become um more accessible, uh I think, for example, there is a growing recognition on the part of publishers that providing texts in electronic format um uh you know is is is useful. And uh and so I think we're seeing more more availability of electronic versions of materials. But at the same time, we're also you know, there's also been developments in digital rights management and some of those um you know DRM sort of mechanisms uh make it harder to uh you know to access uh you know to access materials. Um there have been developments, for example, in Kindle accessibility. Uh and I know that it I don't know whether it's happening in Australia, but certainly in the US, some universities were distributing all their materials on um on Kindle and had to stop when it was discovered that that they weren't accessible, and as a result of that, there were some improvements to Kindle. Um each new each new kind of platform that that comes out can be accessible or inaccessible. It all depends on whether the accessible the accessibility has been built in from the you know from the ground up. Um it I'd like to think that there is a more widespread recognition now about uh inclusive design so that as newer platforms emerge and as new formats sort of come through, things like EPUB, Daisy, um you know, accessibility features will uh be built in. But often often the challenges that people have are not so much with the format but the way it's used. So for example, PDF can be, you know, these days can be made pretty accessible uh if it's if the PDF files are marked up properly with headings and paragraphs and table structure and so forth. But many lecturers don't do that, and so um students get image-only PDF files which have no structure and which they can't even read unless they uh use um OCR software and so a lot, so there's the interaction between the platform and the and and the user of the platform that really determines um how accessible it's it's it's going to be. So that was a bit of a long, waffly answer fashion.
SPEAKER_02That's probably a good um, I'm sure a lot of people that are listening today know that um Vision Australia runs some great courses um on you know ensuring that the person that actually is developing um documents and stuff are aware of that what they need. So I recommend encourage everybody to go to the Vision Australia website and look those up. They're really handy at the moment because they're all online, so you don't have to kind of for us in Tasmania we were excited because we didn't need to fly to Melbourne to get those course, you know, to go do a course now. Um just in relation to, I suppose, with COVID and it's a question around assessments, you know, we're looking at you know assessments being more online now, um, looking at exams being online um at this time. Um have you got any recommendations regarding assessments, but also maybe even some examples of where things have actually gone right so that you know people can actually aim for that um so that and bring about some necessary change?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, look, I think I I think with with with most aspects of of accessibility, things go right more often when the person, you know, when when you kind of consult and involve the you know the person in the discussion. So if if if if a student needs to do a an assessment, then talk to the student, find out what their preferred format is, find out what you know what if it's an online assessment, you know, find out what they've been finding with the platform itself, talk to them about what the assessment is going to include, and some things, you know, some things aren't as accessible or aren't as easy to use. There's a you know that there is a difference between accessibility and and and usability, and some things are accessible but can be very hard to use. And because as a blind you know student or a student who has low vision, you're not generally speaking getting uh like when I when I sort of go into a Zoom meeting, I get one kind of meeting control at a time. So while I'm while I'm sort of trying to turn my video on, I can't also sort of feel on my refreshable brow display what's going on in the chat um you know the chat panel. So things just take longer to do. And uh so sometimes um you know it it's it's important to kind of allow for that by providing extra time for for students to do assessments. There's a there's a long tradition of providing extra time in um in examination situations, both in the the K to 12 uh school system and also at universities, and it's important that that that continue on, you know, with with assessments moving to you know more online sort of um things. Sometimes um any kind of assessment, but specifically online assessments too, can be very visual, whereas in fact the concept being tested isn't uh isn't really about being able to interpret something visually. I I remember when I was at the when I was doing maths uh at uh at high school, one of the one of the topics was solid geometry, where we had to learn about the what happens when um when um lines and planes intersect with um with spheres. And uh in the in the exam um I was given some 3D models made of uh made by the metalworking department at school, I think, with you know metal lines and and planes and and kind of s spherical structures, because what was being tested wasn't my ability or wasn't the ability to read a perspective line drawing of a sphere, but to actually sort of predict what was going to happen to a particular line that met the sphere at a particular angle. So it's important to it's important to look at what is being tested and find a way of of testing that uh which doesn't necessarily require a student who is blind or have low vision to interact visually with the material which in fact they can't do, whether or not it's online or you know, or um or offline. Uh look, I think that's there there's some general general points. Um if you have any specific uh you know, particularly the person who asked that question, if they've got any other speci more specific information or kind of sort of context, um I'd be happy to sort of talk to them uh sort of offline about that.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. Um we have a uh question I won't um put into my own words, I just might write read it out as is. Um Do we need the DDA revised to have more teeth around penalties for developing of IT systems that don't meet accessibility requirements? We don't have so much of an issue with our tier one international providers as they comply with the Americans with Disability Act. Our Australian-based bendors seem to have a bigger problem.
SPEAKER_01I can give you, I can I can talk for the rest of the afternoon about that. But but the but the but the but the basic answer is yes. We do need the DDA um revised, uh, and we've needed it revised you know for a long time. It does need it does need to have more teeth. Um, because I think as time goes on, the teeth that it did have are getting uh worn and they're not necessarily being filled, so cracks, you know, cracks and cavities develop in them. Um look, having having said that though, I think one of the the review of the DDA education standards is going to happen later this year, and that's an opportunity for all of us, whether we're in the university sector or you know, as we are in a you know service providing organization, to comment and and say those things. Many of us have been saying them for you know the last three reviews that that the standards need to be more specific, they need to provide more guidance. Um and you can do that, like you could you could make the standards a lot better without changing the the you know the DDA itself. And similarly, the the Australian and New Zealand um standard for accessible ICT, uh the Australian sorry, the Australian standard for accessible ICT procurement, which is actually the same as the the European standard, uh EN 301549, has you know it has been adopted now, so it's an Australian standard, and you don't need the DDA to for for a university to adopt that standard. In fact, you know, uh one of the things we've been advocating strongly for is for the university sector as a whole to adopt that standard in this ICT procurement policies. Um it it it doesn't, you know, without without the the kind of the the teeth, you know, the sharper teeth in the DDA, you know, it it does mean that there's no compulsions to adopt the standards. But if the university sector as a whole decided that that this is what should happen, then that would be a powerful, a powerful thing. Look, I might just um add one other comment about the DDA, which is that sometimes people say to me, ah, why don't more university students lodge DDA complaints against universities? Or how many people do lodge complaints against universities? Or we don't know how many people do. But one of the reasons and and and and I I'm sure many of you would know you know would would would resonate with this the the reason that the key reason that people don't lodge DDA complaints is because they they think that the the outcomes are going to be too far too long in coming and too little when they you know when they do come and it can be a fairly sort of you know exhausting process. It's not unheard of for for DDA complaints to take over a year to kind of go through from beginning to conciliation or or or um or lack thereof. So never think that the lack of DDA complaints is an indicator that things are going well.
SPEAKER_02No. Definitely um and in the the research and um the report you were writing up were you able to compare how students who are blind or vision impair um what their experience is like in Australia versus or compares to internationally?
SPEAKER_01We weren't really at the time because we that there hadn't been much done internationally certainly not recently. I think there might have been a little bit more sort of done since then although I'm not aware of any specific sort of research report. But certainly anecdotally you know in just talking to to our contacts and and on colleagues and and their colleagues and whatever the the overwhelming impression we got was that our findings were not different like we're not dissimilar from what the the you know from what findings would have been in other countries had the same research been done there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And just probably one final question before we finish up if we if we have any other questions unanswered um we'll chat to Bruce about giving an answer we'll put that on on the website. But what legislation changed is required to drive accessibility ICT procurement in higher education probably even beyond that in further education beyond legislative requirements what else would it take as well?
SPEAKER_01So probably two questions there Bruce Yeah look I mean we would like to see a linkage between government funding and um the a demonstrated I see accessible ICT procurement policy because funding you know funding often you know the or the threat to withdraw funding or reduce funding is often is often a you know a a good motivator um and we've been having you know we've been having some discussions with government not for a while because they've been sort of sidetracked a little bit with all the recent you know recent events but we have had some discussions with government along those you know along those lines and we'll continue to have um those discussions we do think that the the sector uh as a whole working together could make a big difference if every university had an accessible ICT procurement policy then to vet then vendors would have to if they wanted to engage with Australian universities they would have to um make make um make improvements or at least they'd be more likely to to to to make improvements I mean Australia is is a sort of a I think a fairly small market in global terms but it's not insignificant if everyone acts you know acts in concert. So again I think that's the leadership from the s from you know from the from the representative from the university peak bodies um you know and sort of saying well this is what this is what the sector needs to do and this is how we're going to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah okay um so just I might just get in a little sneaky question in it's just because it's nice thing to think are the days of small print poor quality photocopied reader readers or PDFs over?
SPEAKER_01No we wish I think they're they're they're probably you know there's less of them but when you think about the number of old you know books in university libraries and by old I mean anything more than 10 years um you know there's a huge there's a huge amount of stuff that's not electronically available so it has to be it has to be photocopied and um photocopy photocopiers have always been fine. It's just that you know if you don't make sure the tone is sort of um sort of uh full and you know all the rest of it you get you get um poor quality and that will continue to happen in fact it might you know I I don't know I know that there's a lot there's a high sort of casualization in the academic workforce these days and it will probably be sort of who knows what it'll look like after after COVID. But um you know I would imagine that universities will continue to photocopy uh university lecturers will continue to photocopy printed you know printed stuff and some of them will do a good job and some of them you know some of them uh some of them won't um and I can't see that really changing for older you know for existing materials but hopefully you know most stuff now and certainly with all the online databases you know you can access uh you know a huge amount of stuff electronically that's you know that's been that's been published in the last 10, 15 maybe even 20 years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Just a just a practical question um too and I no I said it was the last question but there's a few coming through we're wanting to keep um we've got a couple of more minutes. On that practical level is uh a person has asked is JORS so much better than NVDA to warrant the cost? I'm asking on behalf of a secondary student who is very much opposed to the expense associated with the braille user screen reader. So um yeah have you got any recommendations for that school?
SPEAKER_01Is Mac better than Windows? So it is a personal choice really isn't look look it it just it it is um it is to some extent a personal choice and certainly NVDA has the advantage that it's free. I think it's I think I'm I I think it's still the case that if you want to use advanced sort of features say of Word um then JAWS does a better job than NVDA and JAWS has more you know doesn't Freedom Scientific have more resources to put into developing JAWS than NVDA do. Having said that some some things work better with JAWS uh some things work better with NVDA just as you know some websites work better with Chrome and others work uh better with uh you know with with Firefox I think uh there's two things uh I'll say quickly one is if if you if if a student's in year seven then they've got time to learn both uh if you know maybe their NDIS package can pay for JOWS or get a time to you know just play around with the 40 minute demo mode or get a three month trial version of it or something because it is as as as time goes on and particularly if you um you know if this uh get into sort of things beyond the school level knowing how to use two screen readers uh NVDA and JORS presuming they both continue to evolve uh is useful because you'll find that you'll want to use one sometimes and the other uh at other other times the other thing I'd say is that university shouldn't expect uh a student to only like to to shouldn't require that a student use a different screen reader from the one they're using. If something's not accessible uh to one screen reader uh then there's something you know there's something wrong because if you've been using JAWS for example for you know for 20 years or so then just switching to NVDA for one platform or one uh component of a platform is not is not a simple is not a simple task it's not as simple as just picking up an Android phone you know a Samsung Galaxy when you're used to using an iPhone it is a bit like giving someone who's used to using Windows a Mac computer and saying here we want you to produce a um you know high quality report by tomorrow so um um take advantage like people while the people have the time they I think they should learn how to use both screen readers if they if they can and the university should kind of talk about people's individual requirements with them.
SPEAKER_02Yep I go every now and again when I get on my daughter's Mac I'm just throwing it like I have no idea. I don't know how people go between the two. We've got a question here and I'm aware that we've run out of time but I just might push it it's a little bit about that you know that eight of the um ten recommendations are directed at the Universities Australia and you have tried to engage in them do you think that we're make you're going to be able to make inroads in there or is there anything you think as a sector we could be pushing them to engage more with this report and the recommendations?
SPEAKER_01What we want to see is is is some some a consistent approach across the university sector and we felt at the time that Universities Australia was the was best placed to develop that consistent approach and provide guidance to the sector from the peak body if there are other uh if there are other sort of groups that are better uh and are likely to be more responsive for doing that than the Universities Australia have been then you know we would certainly be keen we have had discussions with other you know a number of other other groups but so far not with not with any group that has the capacity to influence the sector and say to every university well we strongly recommend that you each university develop um you know an accessible ICT procure procurement policy. We are having um ongoing discussions with the last week for example we had a meeting with the the uh Ben Gaudlet Dr Ben Gaudlet who's the disability discrimination commissioner and we are looking at ways of kind of um sort of getting together a group of uh sort of people like from across the different you know different stakeholders government and universities and to to try and work out a collaborative approach but it's going to be a while I think um before before anything uh anything further happens.
SPEAKER_02Yeah great thank you well sorry to push the time out everybody thank you so much Bruce um for presenting that report and and to answering those questions I think it's really important and as I said I'm hoping it's a discussion where the sector will continue um talking about um I want to thank Vision Australia and Rennie in the background also for supporting this presentation We just wanted to thank you again for listening to our podcast.
SPEAKER_00If you are loving our podcasts please subscribe to our channel so you can keep up to date with our latest episodes. You can head over to our socials and website for some more great content wwwct.edu In our next episode we will be hearing from a panel of students on the autism spectrum who will discuss some of the challenges they face in their studies and what has helped them succeed. We hope you can join us again